Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss ideas relating to diet culture and self-image. Please take care of yourselves as you listen, and please avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.
Everyone please welcome Tatiana Pavela to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Tatiana and I are a both a part of The Spark (Amy McNabb’s mindset-focused membership for ambitious, heart-centered actresses), and it’s fun because she’s a Chicago-based actress, theatre artist, and teaching artist (which is just fun for me because I adore Chicago so much and lived/worked there prior to moving to the beach). I was thrilled to sit down with Tatiana and discuss body image.
When I read this quote on her website, “As a teaching artist, she has worked with students of all ages to guide actors to work through fear, take up space and do the ridiculous,” I knew I was in for a treat with this conversation.
In our conversation, we discuss…
Working through fear as an actor
Getting comfortable with being profoundly uncomfortable
People telling us “no” fuels the fire
Her changing body leading to an autoimmune disorder
The realization that she doesn’t have as much control over her body as she once thought she did and coming to terms with that
The nuance of wanting to accept her body but also wanting it to change
Our bodies are designed to fail
Her fearlessness and vulnerability in showing the range of humanity onstage as an actor
The pressure we put on ourselves to be perfect as actors, but the reality being that these characters we’re playing are inherently imperfect beings (just like all of humanity)
We are taught to hate our bodies, and we are taught to not listen to our bodies and override them - how this led Tatiana to a post-sickness diagnosis of mono
Creating space to listen to your voice and hear your body
We discuss joy and the things we both find joyful in our day-to-day lives
We have a big chat about delicious food at the end, so grab your snacks ◡̈
I cannot even tell you how many little golden nuggets of wisdom are within this 54-minute conversation - I hope you enjoy this one. Tatiana is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to our bodies as actors, the patriarchy + our societal conditioning, and ultimately coming back to ourselves. She’s also absolutely hilarious and wonderful. I truly, truly cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!
“I’m a fat actor. I would love to be thin. I have tried my entire life to be thin. Sometimes I have been thinner than others, but it’s just like it’s constantly something that I’m wrestling with. And I’ve always questioned, “If I wasn’t an actor, would I have this same relationship?” You know what I mean? And me and my actor friends, when they talk about their mom trying to lose weight or whatever, we’re like, “What does she care? She’s not an actor!” Like, “Live your fat life. Live your midsize life, and stop worrying about —,” you know what I mean? And so, it’s always like — this is so connected. I mean, I do think ultimately it’s like. every woman does feel this. It’s heightened for actors and people that are in front of other people.”
- Tatiana Pavela
Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at just after the 22-minute mark:
Tatiana Pavela: I mean, it feels like we’re sliding backwards now, to be honest. But the thing that I’ve been telling myself since – because even when I was “thinner,” I was still larger than everyone else around me. Do you know what I mean? It’s kind of a sign that’syou know, “Tatiana, to a certain extent, you’ve always been this.”
But the thing that I would tell myself, and I still do tell myself, is my goal as an actor is to show the range of humanity as much as possible, and I can do that. You know, and it’s so – yeah, it’s like if I can be as fearless – let’s go back to fear, right? If I can be as fearless onstage, I can be as vulnerable, if I can be like, “Look at this. Look at this heartbreak, look at this. This happened on stage. Look at this, look at this, look at this,” you know? I just did a play, and my goal was how vulnerable can I be every night. Can I shed my skin so that they can see this journey? And it’s just like – yeah, that’s my goal. It’s a challenge to myself. It’s like, “I dare you. I dare you to work through your fear so that you can show more humanity to people.”
Megan Gill: Yeah, because we need it now more than ever.
Tatiana Pavela: Because we need it, and because it’s true. You know what I mean? I’m sure so many people have said this on your podcast, but it’s like we’re out here living our lives. I’m in love. I have a wonderful relationship. So many crazy things have happened to me, good and bad. Do you know what I mean? That it’s just like I’m not just here as, you know, young mom number one auditioning for a Triscuit commercial.
Megan Gill: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, 100%. And that’s not to say that if you were in a smaller body, that it wouldn’t be “easier,” or that there wouldn’t be more bookability or more roles available, and I fucking hate that so goddamn much.
Tatiana Pavela: Let it out. Let it out!
Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s just – and I also just wanna say that too, because that’s also just a very real part of what’s wrong with the industry and what I would like to change about the industry, if I could. Yeah.
Tatiana Pavela: I mean, it’s hard. It does feel we’re sliding backwards, you know what I mean, in terms of plus-size clothing availability –
Megan Gill: Yes.
Tatiana Pavela: – in stores. I remember when Athleta started offering their plus-size in store, and it was so awesome. I was like, “I’ll give you all my money.” Do you know what I mean? Like this is amazing. This is great. And then when they recently pulled that back, I was like oh man, do you know what I mean? It just happens over and over again where lines are closing or it’s not offered in store. It just feels like a lot of this is moving backwards.
Megan Gill: Yeah.
Tatiana Pavela: And so, how’s your body image now Tatiana? Well, it was better a few years ago.
Megan Gill: Right, right.
Tatiana Pavela: It was better two years ago. But I mean… and then the thing that I can just tell myself is – and it sounds so pretentious to be like, “Oh, I’m gonna be an example to people,” but is that it’s just like, look, I love when I’ve seen fat women onstage, you know what I mean, especially as love interests where it had nothing to do with fat.
Megan Gill: Yep.
Tatiana Pavela: I was just like, just be that example for someone else, you know? And my students, who are adults, there’s so much fear in them, and there’s so much think-we-need-to-be-perfect before we do the thing. And I’m like no one’s perfect. You kind of have to be strong and wrong.
How I’ve learned anything in this industry is by doing it wrong and having someone tell me the right way to do it, or, “Don’t do it that way. Do it like this,” you know? And it’s like… one of my students was talking about their need for perfectionism, and I was thinking about it on my walk home after class where I was like how interesting, how unfortunate, how bizarre, how weird, how whatever that we think, as artists, we need to be perfect, but the thing that we are trying to represent is imperfect, always. Humanity is always imperfect, and that’s what makes it interesting. And those are the stories that we want to watch, and yet, we think we need to be perfect in order to represent that.
Megan Gill: Yeah.
Tatiana Pavela: Why?
Megan Gill: Seriously why. Make it make it make sense! And we think that our bodies need to be this image of perfection or acceptable in order to tell these stories. For me, a big thing now that I’m in my early thirties, approaching my mid-thirties is I have never had Botox, and I am now seeing my deeper lines. I just got headshots done, and I’m like, “No, bitch. You are not doing that.” And you know what? If people, if actors want to, more power to you. Do what works for you. For me, kind of like you were saying, I’m challenging myself to not because I want to be that face that looks the age that I am, and I wanna tell those stories with this face and with this body, and it is so damn hard. But it’s like we also need that. Sure, we need the 35-year-old women with Botox. Yes, that’s needed too. But also, my forehead wrinkles and my smile lines are also needed. They’re both needed.
Tatiana Pavela: Have you seen “The Beat In Me” with Claire Danes?
Megan Gill: Yes. Yes. Wait, with the – she’s the writer, she’s the writer.
Tatiana Pavela: She’s the writer. So I say this completely neutral. You see her, and she looks older, right? I’ve been watching her since “My So-Called Life” days. When I saw her face, when I first started watching that series, I breathed a sigh of motherfucking relief I didn’t realize I was holding. I was like, “Oh, my god.”
Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s beautiful.
Tatiana Pavela: It was like – because you could see everything on her face. You could see every emotion, everything she’s holding, everything she’s thinking. I mean, truly, truly phenomenal. And the thing that I love about her and Matthew Rhys in the show is you never know what they’re gonna do, and when they do it, it’s always the more psychopathic choice. You’re just like, “Oh, my god!”
Megan Gill: It really is such a good show.
Tatiana Pavela: It’s incredible.
Megan Gill: It took me a second to piece together…
Tatiana Pavela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There’s so much out there right now that it’s like, “Wait, did I watch that? I don’t know, maybe?”
Megan Gill: “I know I’ve seen it! I know I’ve seen Claire Danes in a series recently, but I need to visualize it for one second, yep.” Yeah, you’re so right.
Tatiana Pavela: When I saw her, it was a sigh of relief, and it was like, “Oh my god, this is incredible.” And I mean, at the end of the day too, it’s like, look, yeah, do whatever you want to do. Do you know what I mean? I have so many friends, more people than I know are probably on Botox, you know what I mean? It’s like everybody’s doing it, but I just am so profoundly upset at the money that women are expected to spend on their looks, and it does not matter for men.
Megan Gill: Yep.
Tatiana Pavela: It pisses me off –
Megan Gill: Same.
Tatiana Pavela: – so much because it is a – this myth of beauty, right, is a tool for oppression to keep our money away from us and to keep our time away from us and to keep our energy away from us, so that we are focused on something else that is always unattainable, always changing, always out of reach, so that we are easier to control. And it always comes down to that. And I think – I’m like, listen, I would love a facelift. I’m in my forties, over here. I was like, “Just get that off.” I would love that, but at the end of the day, I’m like, “Resist the patriarchy. Resist the patriarchy.”
Megan Gill: Yeah.
Tatiana Pavela: And so, I remember when I first started going to therapy years ago, when all this started happening with my body and changing or whatever, and my therapist was like, “Who taught you to hate yourself?” And I was like, “What do you mean? What a stupid question! What do you mean? We all hate ourselves! We’re all taught that. All women are taught that.”
Megan Gill: Literally.
Tatiana Pavela: Every magazine, every book. Why are you asking me like it’s coming from a little secret, little source, you know what I mean?
Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like I can pinpoint one thing? It’s like, “It’s everything!”
Tatiana Pavela: It’s like literally everything.
Megan Gill: “It’s my mom, even though she really didn’t mean to,” you know? Yeah. Yeah.
Tatiana Pavela: I know. It’s wild. It’s wild. It’s like, “Who taught you to hate yourself?” “Who taught me to love myself?”
Megan Gill: God, right. Where’s that? Where’s that at?
Tatiana Pavela: Yeah. Like…
Megan Gill: Certainly not in my college theater program. Whoops, I said it.
Tatiana Pavela: Name names. Name names! I mean, it’s so hard. It’s so hard in this industry. The other thing that I come back to is that there’s no guarantee for a career. So whatever you look like, it still always – it might never happen to you. You may never get your big break. Nothing is guaranteed, and no one has the same path as anyone else. And so, you kind of can’t say, “If this happened, what –,” do you know what I mean? Because the times in my life where I felt like, “Okay, I’m gonna do this or get this role, whatever, and this is gonna be a stepping stone to someone else,” it’s like no. It wasn’t.
Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah. Yeah!
Tatiana Pavela: You’re back at square one.
Megan Gill: Right, right. Totally. We might as well live as peacefully as we can and as free as we can in these bodies that we have and that do incredible things for us and allow us to do the incredible work that we do, and just try going back to that acceptance piece of what you were touching on earlier when you said, “Either I can have that unattainable thing and try to fight to work towards that unattainable thing that society tells me I need to be for my whole life, or I can just say, fuck it. This is me. I feel good,” for the most part. We don’t always feel good.
Tatiana Pavela: Yeah.
Megan Gill: “I know how to take care of my body. I know how to nourish my body. I know how to experience joy in my body and just feel a little bit more mentally free,” and I feel like that’s almost the win.
Tatiana Pavela: Experiencing joy in your body is the win because we are taught to ignore our bodies. We’re taught to override. We’re taught to keep going. We’re taught to push, push, push, push, push, and not be in tune with what we feel at all, wou know what I mean? Especially when you’re in a rigorous kind of training program as artists or whatever, right? It’s like, “Keep going, keep going, keep going,” you know? And, okay, so this is wild. This is something that kind of stopped me in my tracks that no one will probably think is wild except for me.
Megan Gill: I can’t wait to hear.
Tatiana Pavela: When I was getting all of this stuff figured out, right, it was a couple of years after grad school, and my third doctor at this point was doing all these tests and everything, and she was like, “Oh yeah, so when did you have mono?” And I was like, “I never had mono.” And she was like, “No, you definitely had mono. It’s in your blood,” or something had come up, right? And I was like, “I never had mono.” And she was like, “Well, you had mono.”
Yeah. So I’m like, “Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. So this mono – I think about this thing that lays people down for a month – you are too tired to get out of bed or whatever – I probably had it in grad school or the years after. And I remember the days when I was so tired. I remember every day I spent more money on coffee than food. Do you know what I mean? It’s just like I was so tired, and I just overrode that. I did not miss one day, one class in three years, one rehearsal, nothing. And I’m just like that was applauded. This thing of – I was like, “Damn, that’s powerful.” And then I’m like, “No, no, no. That’s overpowering. That is not powerful. That is you being so, so not able to listen to your body that you have no idea what’s up.”
“I just am so profoundly upset at the money that women are expected to spend on their looks, and it does not matter for men. It pisses me off so much because it is a – this myth of beauty, right, is a tool for oppression to keep our money away from us and to keep our time away from us and to keep our energy away from us, so that we are focused on something else that is always unattainable, always changing, always out of reach, so that we are easier to control. And it always comes down to that. And I think – I’m like, listen, I would love a facelift. I’m in my forties, over here. I was like, “Just get that off.” I would love that, but at the end of the day, I’m like, “Resist the patriarchy. Resist the patriarchy.”
-Tatiana Pavela
Tatiana Pavela is a Chicago-based actress and theatre artist who gravitates towards experimental theatre, devised work and heightened language. As a teaching artist and private coach, she loves working with actors of all levels to work through fear, take up space and do the ridiculous. She has worked in various theaters across the US and internationally, but holds a special place in her heart for her solo show Brandi Alexander (Week 1 Critic’s Pick from The List, Edinburgh Festival Fringe; Artist Trust Award - Seattle, WA). Happiest in the water or in a rehearsal room.
A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:
It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.
These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.
Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.
Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!
While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.
